Amy Byerse: 00:00:04

Welcome to season three of MTE's Plugged in podcast.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:07

This season, we will continue to explore the world of electric vehicles.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:12

Whether you're a seasoned EV driver or you're just beginning your journey into electric vehicles, this podcast is for you.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:18

For a more enhanced experience, be sure to watch the video version of this podcast that will be linked in the show notes.

Brandon Wagner: 00:00:24

Hello, everyone.

Brandon Wagner: 00:00:25

Welcome to MTE's Plugged in podcast.

Brandon Wagner: 00:00:27

I'm Brandon Wagner, and I'm here with Amy Byerse.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:30

Hey, Brandon.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:31

Happy to be here today.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:32

Today we're going to talk about the history of EV's.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:36

Ev's started probably around, like, when we really started seeing, like, the leaf and the Tesla.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:42

It was probably 13 to 15 years ago, and then it kind of died out pretty quickly, I think, because there wasn't that charging infrastructure there.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:51

Now we're seeing a resurgence.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:53

We're getting the Chargers out there.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:55

All the manufacturers had jumped on board, and so there's so many models.

Amy Byerse: 00:00:59

And so we're kind of.

Amy Byerse: 00:01:00

We're seeing it a lot.

Amy Byerse: 00:01:01

But the reality is that electric vehicles have been around a lot longer than even 15 years ago.

Amy Byerse: 00:01:10

So I've asked Brandon to do some homework and study some stuff, and I've got some questions for you on the history of EV's.

Amy Byerse: 00:01:18

Are you ready?

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:19

We'll see.

Amy Byerse: 00:01:19

We'll see.

Amy Byerse: 00:01:20

Okay, so the first question I have for you is, when were the first electric vehicles developed?

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:27

So I had to look this up a little bit, Amy.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:29

Obviously, I didn't know off the top of my head.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:31

I know, I know.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:32

Surprising.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:33

But it's kind of interesting.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:36

I want to go back a little bit to the early 17 hundreds.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:40

The steam engine is starting to get developed, and about 100 years goes by, and we're starting to see the first steam engine railway.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:48

And that's around: 1825

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:51

So steam engine's been around for about 100 years.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:53

This is a radical new development and transportation.

Brandon Wagner: 00:01:58

But right around that: 1825

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:05

And we'll talk a little bit more about that.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:07

But for just a moment, imagine, you know, we talk about how things have changed in the last ten years.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:13

For us, during this early 18 hundreds, a lot was changing rapidly.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:19

I made a few notes here.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:20

One of the things, in: 1821

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:26

And we're going to see, in about 15 years after that, the first electric vehicle is going to be made.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:31

At the same time, people are still getting used to the steam engine and public transportation on the railway.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:39

We're seeing the first electric telegraph.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:43

And so this is a big boom of industrial technology that's improving people's lives.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:51

And the internal combustion engine is actually not on the roadmap right now.

Brandon Wagner: 00:02:59

It's really steam engine.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:04

I guess I just.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:06

You watch all the movies in the early 18 hundreds, and they're still having candles in their house.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:10

So I guess I just wasn't even thinking that there was really stuff being done with electricity at that point.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:16

But I guess it was, you know, maybe not for the masses, but certainly, you know, once they started really harnessing electricity, they started building the motors and the electric cars not.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:30

Not far after that.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:31

That's a bit surprising to me.

Brandon Wagner: 00:03:33

It is when you, especially when you consider the Civil War hasn't even happened yet.

Brandon Wagner: 00:03:37

So, yeah, it's for me, when I getting to do something like this is fun, because I don't realize that how messed up my timeline is of history and how out of order I have it until I go back and start studying.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:49

Right.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:50

I mean, as you were sitting there doing the timeline, I'm like, is that right?

Amy Byerse: 00:03:54

Could that be right?

Amy Byerse: 00:03:55

Yeah, that's crazy.

Amy Byerse: 00:03:56

But then I'm like, well, you know, Ben Franklin, that was way before that when he flew that kite.

Amy Byerse: 00:04:01

So I guess, you know, the theory was there for a while, but.

Amy Byerse: 00:04:05

So my next question is for you is, who were some of the early pioneers in electric vehicle development?

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:11

Yeah, well, so there's two that kind of come to mind right off the bat.

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:16

One of them is a guy named Robert Anderson.

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:19

He was a scottish inventor, and he made this really crude electric carriage.

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:25

that was right around the mid: 1830

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:31

So once the batteries were used up, you're done.

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:34

At the same time.

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:35

Around the same time, there was a hungarian inventor.

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:38

I'm going to say his name wrong, agnost Jedlick, or probably Yedliche.

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:43

But he made some contributions to EV's.

Brandon Wagner: 00:04:47

In the late: 1820

Brandon Wagner: 00:05:02

It was a small vehicle, but his tinkering sort of was a base that people could build on later on.

Brandon Wagner: 00:05:11

ust a few years later, in the: 1880

Brandon Wagner: 00:05:25

He liked the idea of reducing pollution, even at that point.

Brandon Wagner: 00:05:29

So, remember, steam engines are kind of going on right now, but he wanted to focus on conserving some resources.

Brandon Wagner: 00:05:39

He was a major step forward in what came later on.

Amy Byerse: 00:05:43

Well, what about the significance of electric vehicles in the early 20th century?

Amy Byerse: 00:05:50

We'll move up a little bit on the timeline.

Brandon Wagner: 00:05:54

So Ev's, a lot of times people tell us one of the things they like is that they're quieter.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:02

During that time, it was significantly quieter.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:05

You know, the gasoline engines, they were much louder and they were cleaner.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:10

I mean, we have a lot of technology now that helps reduce emissions, but back then that didn't exist.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:18

And so Ev's were considered, had some advantages.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:26

They were more reliable.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:27

You know, those gasoline cars back then, you had to crank them to start them.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:32

So that was a little bit of convenience there.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:37

Ev's had more of a presence in the delivery industry and taxis than the gasoline counterpart, but they started to decline.

Brandon Wagner: 00:06:50

And the reason for that really was because Henry Ford, Henry Ford Sort of was not only a pioneer in the auto industry, he was a pioneer in US manufacturing.

Brandon Wagner: 00:07:01

And, you know, Henry Ford was fond of saying that you could buy a Ford Model T in any color you wanted, as long as it's black.

Brandon Wagner: 00:07:11

But he was very much repeatable in making his vehicles, which brought the cost to produce down, and EV's could no longer compete in a cost competitive situation.

Amy Byerse: 00:07:24

So that kind of, I guess, leads to my next question, or maybe you've already answered my next question, which was, how did the rise of the internal combustion engine impact the electric vehicles?

Brandon Wagner: 00:07:35

So a couple, you know, obviously the Ford made a big step forward, but combined with that, the road infrastructure was getting built out, and personal vehicles at the time were.

Brandon Wagner: 00:07:47

You weren't really thinking you were going to use them for long distance traveling.

Brandon Wagner: 00:07:50

That was what the railway was for.

Brandon Wagner: 00:07:52

You know, the railroad industry was, I think, the biggest industry for a while in the US.

Brandon Wagner: 00:07:58

So once that road started getting longer and they found some petroleum reserves, of course, at the time, you know, there wasn't as much knowledge about the emissions and that sort of thing.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:09

So they saw a cheap source of fuel in these cars, and it just allowed for them to naturally adopt using these cars to go longer distances.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:21

And the EV's didn't have that range.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:23

We're still talking about range anxiety today.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:26

Imagine what it would've been like there.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:28

Plus, Henry Ford, not only just what he was doing, he was always improving.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:35

He had another quote that said, if he asked folks, what would you like to help your transportation?

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:42

They would say a faster horse.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:44

But he was kind of a pioneer in his visioning.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:47

And so he wasn't satisfied to just continue making vehicles like, he was, he was always improving the process, which made the cost to produce even lower.

Brandon Wagner: 00:08:57

And all of those things combined together just sort of made EV's more of a niche product.

Amy Byerse: 00:09:03

So when did the interest in electric vehicles begin to revive again?

Amy Byerse: 00:09:10

Like, when did it kind of turn back around to where people were looking at electric vehicles?

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:14

ore that happened, but in the: 1970

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:23

You've heard the stories about people waiting in line for the gas pumps for a mile.

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:27

And that was the first thing that really got manufacturers thinking about making EV's as an alternative source to fuel these vehicles.

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:38

And so General Motors in the nineties created the EV one.

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:42

And it's actually an interesting.

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:45

There's a documentary called who killed the electric cardinal?

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:49

You can rent it on prime.

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:50

We have one of our EV car club members, George Steinheimer.

Brandon Wagner: 00:09:54

He actually owned an EV one for a little while, but eventually GM bought all those back, and they destroyed all of them, except for a handful that are on display elsewhere.

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:06

But that started, that was a big step, and then it wasn't really until, I guess, in the late nineties and the two thousands when Toyota came out with the Prius and hybrids became popular.

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:22

And then the next step was: 2008

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:24

Tesla came out with their roadster, which we talked about.

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:27

EV's being a niche product.

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:28

That was kind of a niche product, obviously, but it was an eye turner.

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:33

It caught a lot of people's attention.

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:35

then not long after that, in: 2013

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:43

We had one of the original leaves.

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:45

We have another one of their newer models in our fleet.

Brandon Wagner: 00:10:49

But those were real major milestones in the EV history.

Amy Byerse: 00:10:55

Yeah.

Amy Byerse: 00:10:56

And I remember that time.

Amy Byerse: 00:10:57

I remember it very well.

Amy Byerse: 00:10:58

I was actually with Murphysboro electric department at that time, and we had a leaf as well.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:06

And I think we went in, I think we partnered with Middle Tennessee Electric, and we went and had a wrap designed for it.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:15

And so we each had them wrapped the same way.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:18

Of course, you had your logo on yours, and we had the MeV logo on ours.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:23

But I remember, first of all, I remember seeing the Teslas, and, I mean, when you very rare that you saw one.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:31

And, I mean, if there was one, you know, it was like, oh, hey, in this parking lot, there's a Tesla.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:37

So they were all, everybody's going to go to that parking lot and see that Tesla.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:40

Or if you passed it, you're like, I passed a Tesla today.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:43

It was crazy.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:43

You know, there was a lot of talk about that, and then we got the leaf, and I was always a little nervous to drive it, I'm going to tell you.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:55

I'm going to be honest.

Amy Byerse: 00:11:56

And it was, because it was so quiet.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:00

And I would be driving down in some of the downtown areas of Murfreesboro where a lot of people walk.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:06

And I would have people, like, almost walk out in front of me, Orlando bicycles, just going and blowing because they're not hearing me.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:11

And so you really had to be on guard when you, when you were driving it.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:16

But, you know, it was an exciting time.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:19

I think we put, I think that's, you know, when we put the charger at the chamber of commerce here in Murfreesboro and.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:28

But then it just kind of petered out a little bit for a while, you know, it.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:33

I think there was some of it, like with Tesla at that time, that was when their batteries would explode.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:41

There was a lot of accidents where the cars were catching on fire.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:45

I don't know if you remember that or not.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:46

And so that was for about a year or so, and then it was just like, nothing.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:50

Like you didn't really hear of it anymore.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:53

I think we all.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:54

We got rid of our lease.

Amy Byerse: 00:12:56

You know, we had a hybrid escape at the time.

Amy Byerse: 00:13:01

It's kind of what we went with.

Amy Byerse: 00:13:03

And I think at that time we thought, okay, the future is the hybrid vehicle, like what the Prius was, the escape.

Amy Byerse: 00:13:10

You know, other manufacturers were doing these hybrid vehicles, and that's kind of where we thought the industry would go, but, you know, it kind of took off again.

Amy Byerse: 00:13:22

So what are some key milestones in the modern era, kind of where we are now of electric vehicles that made it different?

Amy Byerse: 00:13:30

Like, what has made it different this time?

Brandon Wagner: 00:13:33

Well, I think that the first.

Brandon Wagner: 00:13:35

This is just my perspective on it, but I think the first round of those EV's that you were describing, they had sort of been introduced to the market as a niche product.

Brandon Wagner: 00:13:48

They were very much a product for drivers who were looking to make a very explicit step in reducing their carbon footprint that has a limited market, really.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:04

I mean, you know, because people want to do that, but there's also a level of how much cost do we want to do that?

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:12

So you started having some new manufacturers come in and they realized that EV's are very fun.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:19

They're a fun experience.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:21

And I think they started marketing it a little bit more that way.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:24

You still had that carbon advantage as well.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:29

But fun sells, right?

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:32

So people will pay for fun.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:34

So I think some of that happened.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:36

I also think that there were some government incentives to help breakthrough in battery technologies allowed for longer range.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:44

And we've talked about this before.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:45

There's this chicken and egg thing of charging infrastructure.

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:48

Do you put the charging infrastructure in first and then the EV adoption follows, or do you wait until there's enough EV adoption to justify putting charging infrastructure in?

Brandon Wagner: 00:14:58

So all of those things sort of had to figure themselves out a little bit before we saw big, widespread adoption like we see today.

Amy Byerse: 00:15:08

So how has the market for electric vehicles evolved in recent years?

Brandon Wagner: 00:15:14

Well, I think obviously range has improved quite a bit.

Brandon Wagner: 00:15:19

We talked about that first Nissan Leaf, and we're proud to serve Nissan, of course, but that first leaf, I would get in, and by the time I got on the interstate, the expected range was just dropping so fast.

Brandon Wagner: 00:15:33

There's newer model leaf that doesn't do that, and other EV's have kind of figured out how to give a realistic range.

Brandon Wagner: 00:15:40

I think that's a big deal.

Brandon Wagner: 00:15:44

Obviously, there's a variety of vehicles now that didn't exist before.

Brandon Wagner: 00:15:50

Used to, you could spot an EV from a mile away because it was always made in such a way that it stood out and almost had to look a little bit weird.

Brandon Wagner: 00:15:58

I mean, that, you know, I don't know why, but that was sort of the way it was.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:02

And it was going to be limited to a sedan.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:04

I mean, they, they were trying to build them.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:07

They're going to be heavy because of the batteries, but they need them to be as light as possible to help with range.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:11

So you're limited in your functionality.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:13

But now we have trucks, we have suv's, we have industrial vans.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:19

I was telling someone the other day, I don't know the last time I saw an Amazon delivery vehicle that wasn't an EV.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:28

It's very strange how quickly that sort of happened.

Amy Byerse: 00:16:30

Yeah, you kind of have to look for the tailpipe.

Amy Byerse: 00:16:32

Like a lot of times we'll pass the car and my husband will be like, is that an ev?

Amy Byerse: 00:16:35

And I have to wait for it to pass.

Amy Byerse: 00:16:37

You know, I'm like, well, let me.

Amy Byerse: 00:16:39

No, no.

Amy Byerse: 00:16:40

Tell pipe.

Amy Byerse: 00:16:40

Yeah, that's an Ev.

Amy Byerse: 00:16:41

You know, it is harder to pick them out now.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:43

Yeah.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:44

Which I think is good.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:45

I mean, yeah, it's helped, I think, with people when they look really strange.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:51

I think people inherently thought, well, I have to have a certain lifestyle in order to adopt this, and I'm not sure I'm ready to adopt that lifestyle.

Brandon Wagner: 00:16:59

But when it's just, you know, we have a lot of f 150 lightnings.

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:04

They look just like the f 150s.

Amy Byerse: 00:17:05

They do.

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:06

And when you drive down the road, nobody really knows that you're, you know, an Ev.

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:11

So I think that's a good thing.

Amy Byerse: 00:17:13

So historically and today, what are some of the challenges faced by electric vehicles?

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:21

I think a major challenge that we are struggling with today is the holistic life of the vehicle, and we just don't have enough experience yet to have good answers.

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:33

There's a lot of concern about what happens to the battery at the end of life, but I also think there's some struggling with what is the end of life.

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:43

Are these batteries, can they go 100,000 miles?

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:47

Can they go a million miles?

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:49

I mean, different claims are being made by different battery manufacturers, and time will sort of tell, can they be recycled?

Brandon Wagner: 00:17:58

I think that's a major thing that we need to figure out before we.

Brandon Wagner: 00:18:03

That's going to be a point of hesitation for some folks to adopt.

Brandon Wagner: 00:18:10

And I think that the other part that's going to be really interesting is autonomous driving.

Brandon Wagner: 00:18:18

We're going to talk in another podcast more about that.

Brandon Wagner: 00:18:22

But there's some interesting things about autonomous driving.

Brandon Wagner: 00:18:27

If you're programming a car how to drive, and the car is driving down the road and someone is on the sidewalk and they trip and they fall in front of the car, what do you program the car to do?

Brandon Wagner: 00:18:42

Swerve and put the driver at risk or put the pedestrian at risk?

Brandon Wagner: 00:18:49

And there are some ethical things that have to be decided in this autonomous driving thing.

Brandon Wagner: 00:18:54

It's something that we don't really get into much, but I've heard some conferences speak about this, and it'll just be something that has to be figured out.

Amy Byerse: 00:19:02

So that leads into kind of my last question for you today is we've looked at the past.

Amy Byerse: 00:19:10

Let's look at the future.

Amy Byerse: 00:19:11

So what is the future outlook, do you think, for electric vehicles?

Brandon Wagner: 00:19:15

Well, there's a lot I could talk about.

Brandon Wagner: 00:19:18

I could talk about battery improvements.

Brandon Wagner: 00:19:21

And I would rather, though, give you, like, my hot take.

Brandon Wagner: 00:19:27

Are you ready for this?

Amy Byerse: 00:19:28

I'm ready.

Brandon Wagner: 00:19:28

Okay.

Brandon Wagner: 00:19:29

So, you know, there's a saying that I say a lot, and it's in the world of technology, people tend to overestimate what can happen in a year and underestimate what can happen in ten years.

Brandon Wagner: 00:19:43

And so this is my ten year estimation, and we can come back in ten years, and you can laugh at me how wrong I am, but I believe that within ten years, I don't think most people will own a vehicle anymore.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:00

I think autonomous driving, autonomous vehicles are going to be the standard.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:06

And I see us having more of an app, kind of like the rideshare app where you get up in the morning and you need to go to work.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:16

You say, pick me up and take me to work, and a driverless car picks you up and drops you off, and then you're going on vacation with family.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:27

This time.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:27

I need a van and it's going to drive me on my vacation if I'm going to Lowe's or home depot.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:36

I need a truck today.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:37

And I think we'll have a monthly service relationship with a vehicle rather than owning one, which is going to be strange.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:45

But when you consider the thought of I don't have to maintain it.

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:48

If it gets in a wreck, I don't have to worry about it, I don't have to pay insurance on it, and I don't have to box myself into do I want a sedan?

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:55

Do I want a truck?

Brandon Wagner: 00:20:56

Do I want, you know, these other style of vehicles.

Brandon Wagner: 00:21:00

I have the ultimate flexibility.

Brandon Wagner: 00:21:03

Someone will figure this out.

Brandon Wagner: 00:21:04

And I think that slowly but surely we're turning into subscription society anyway.

Brandon Wagner: 00:21:10

And autonomous vehicles opens that door.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:15

Well, we'll see.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:18

I'm not gonna lie, that scares me a little bit.

Brandon Wagner: 00:21:20

It is scary.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:21

Like, I, you know, of course I'm a control freak.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:23

I want control and then I'm giving, you know, I don't know.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:27

We'll see.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:28

We'll come back in ten years and we'll have this discussion.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:30

So, Brandon, this has been all very, very interesting.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:34

And, you know, it is a very exciting, growing industry that has a very long history that a lot of people don't realize.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:42

And I am looking forward.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:44

I don't know, Al, after you've said that, I don't know if I'm looking forward to see what the future holds or not.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:48

But we'll see what the future holds for electric vehicles.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:52

Thanks to everyone for listening today.

Amy Byerse: 00:21:55

If you have any questions about MTE's EV ready program, nightflex rate, or the EV car club, or anything EV related, go to drivev.com or email us@evcarclubte.com dot.

Amy Byerse: 00:22:09

Until next time, plug in, power up and drive safe.